Re: [aymara] Prophetic Aymaras book of mormon etc.

["don asay" <donasay@xxxxxxxxxxx>]

----- Original Message -----
From: "Alex Condori" <lista2@iname.com>
To: <aymaralist@aymara.org>
Sent: Saturday, February 24, 2001 12:53 PM
Subject: [aymara] Prophetic Aymaras


>
> Are we talking of the Aymaras only? or the native peoples of the Americas
> as a whole?



to the best of my understanding,  the native peoples of amercia as a
whole....




>
> > ( I read in an earlier message that
> > someone cited Aymara as the closest thing to the Adamic langrage?
>
> Yes, I heard it also. However, such statement makes no sense
> because we don't know what the adamic language was, so even less
> we can measure the degree of closeness of Aymara to an
> unknown language. By the way, there is no reason to think
> that the "Adamaic" could be considered a semitic language.
>

Agreed, and how would anyone know?



> > Anyway the families sailed and landed  on the west
> > coast of South America
>
> How can be that area so accurately located? I
> don't think the Book of Mormon says "they
> landed on the west coast of South America".
> What is the method mormons used to reach to
> such conclusion from the text?
>
> > I believe in the area of Northern Chile  ( will have
> > to look that up to be sure)
>


It is not in the book of Mormon, the exact location,  It is in the
discourses of Joseph Smith, the person we (members of the Church of Jesus
Christ of Latter-Day Saints)  hold as a modern day prophet, the person that
received the Gold plates engraven by the ancient American prophets.  I have
it in a book  but did not have the time to locate the book/ page.  I will
pass it on shortly.....    I am not aware if the location was provided by
"revelation" or if it possibly may be stated in some other portion of the
Gold Plates not translated and published as we have it in the form of the
Book of Mormon or by any other means for that matter.  We as members
understand that the Book of Mormon currently is only a small portion of the
complete writings of the ancient prophets.  Joseph had at least some access
to many more  metal plates, but was only allowed to translate a portion at
that time.  I suppose ( and that is all this is, MY conjecture and
supposition) that maybe he could have read it in some other unpublished
portion of the complete engravings. There is no formal or informal statement
of the church as to the manner that knowledge was gained that I am aware of.
Therefore if one has belief, faith, whatever that Joseph Smith was a "modern
prophet" then he could, should have access to that knowledge.  If one
believes not so in him as a prophet then at this point in time at least,
there is no evidence or record I suppose.  (wholly unscientific)


> Please, look it up.

Gald to!
>
> > I find it interesting to note that the
> > scriptures make great pains to reference that both groups took written
> > records with them
>
> Both groups?? were there more than one group?


Yes both groups mention the records they took from the land of or near
Jerusalem,  The "Jeridites", the ones that left the tower of Babel and the
"nephrites" who left for the Americas about 600 B.C.  Are there or could
there be more?  I do not know of any but suppose if there were two why could
there not be more?  Those two are the ones in the Book of Mormon but as
above,   the Book of Mormon is only  a small portion of the total records
engraven on Gold and Brass plates .


>
> > to 1. preserve Gods commandments, 2. keep their
> > genealogies and 3. to preserve their LANGUAGES.  I find that last one
> > interesting in light of the ongoing discussion of the perfect language
> > question here in this discussion.
>
> But if they came from Jerusalem, they should
> have talked Hebrew (or Aramaic, depending on what
> period we are talking about)
>
Great point, I will check into more precise references of this also.  I know
the book of Mormon refers to it I believe as a form of Hebrew but I have
honestly forgotten.  I will find the references in the Book of Mormon and or
other and pass them on to you.



> > We believe tat following the crucifixion of
> > Christ, Christ indeed himself came to the Americas and taught them and
> > established his law on that content, organized 12 Apostles etc.  The
> people
> > here experienced the three days of darkness,  devastation, earthquakes
> etc.
> > at the time of the crucifixion.  When we were translating the book of
> > Mormon into Aymara we found as we searched for proper wording and
> > translations of these passages,  the Oldest Ayamaristas could relate
very
> > curious stories or legends with great detail and resemblance to those in
> > the Book of Mormon that had been passed down verbally generation to
> > generation.
>
> Well, the andean peoples have always had traditions
> about great cataclisms and they relate stories
> of a huge flood where the diferent nations originated.
> Those cataclisms are violent transitions between
> cosmic ages, and are called Pachakuti in Quechua.
> In fact, the arriving of the europeans was considered
> one of these Pachakuti.



Right  these are all mentioned in the  book "copacabana de Los Incas" that I
photocopied from a friend in La Paz written by the Jesuit Priests.  These
traditions were often told to us as missionaries speaking with the older
Aymaristas in particular. I remember elder aymaristas realting a time of 3
days of darkness and terror where  there was complete darkness,  people
were bureid in theri homes doing daily tasks. The mountains were lowered
and low place bacame mountains.  Others realted that the darkness was
opressive adn they were not able to light fires for light.
Then again many of these same "traditions" or
whatever are in many many cultures throughout the world so are not terribly
unique.  Truth is Truth,  if the flood did indeed happen, I would expect
most if not all cultures to be aware if it.  If there were destruction ,
earthquakes etc. at the time of the crucifixion I again would expect there
to be some mention of the events in all areas and or cultures.  These things
are by no means unique or thought to be known to only Mormons.  The fact
that these specific events appear to be actually represented with much
similarity points me to believe that they were in fact, factual events and
not just some legend or bedtime story.  I think some try to explain those
events as story and fiction, but to me the universality screams factualness.
I believe there is one God and one Christ ( Savior) for all humanity but we
as individuals, peoples, civilizations have the ability to choose to accept
or recognize these things or deny them likewise   As cultures make their
individual choices, the specifics of these events, interpretations of God,
Religion, morals, laws etc "evolve" over time from the basic roots still
maintaining good flavor of the original event but differing none the less.
But now I get more into "religion" than I had intrended.......
>




> I can supposse that the ancient tradiction of
> Wiraxucha has been found very valuable to Mormons.

Yes, at least I (we?) would like to believe so.  I personally believe it is
in reference to Christ himself visiting and teaching directly following the
Crucifixion taught then he would return again to the world.  We are taught
today, just as we believe Christ taught the ancient Americans then that he
is
yet to return again ( in person) for the "second coming"  We as Mormons are
not unique here as many Christian religions do believe and await that future

event.  It would be easy to then expect that when some bearded white people
suddenly appear with great ship, firepower etc. it could be (mis?)understood
as the second coming.  In fact the name of the Church "Latter-Day Saints"
has specific reference to the belief that  this era, is the time of  the
Last Days before Christ's return to Reign.  We truly do believe this to be
the last era as referenced in Revelations etc.  But of course the exact
year, day time is not to be know, just that this is the last season so to
speak.  Again I know of No policy or position statement connecting Wiraxucha
specifically to this event form the church itself.  Do I personally believe
so?  absoultly!.....


>
> > The book ( gold engraven
> > plates ) is buried in a hillside before the last great battle
>
> last? who for? There where native americans and
> also battles and wars when europeans arrived.
>

Correct,  Sorry I was not clear on that point. I tried to condense too much.
How to put 500 or so pages in a paragraph.   Mormon and then his son Moroni
were the two last prophets of the book of Mormon specific peoples.  I made
an unclear and incomplete reference to basically two generalized groups of
peoples developing out of the Family of Lehi (600bc).  One son, Nephi became
a prophet and leader in righteousness.  Two sons of Lehi,   Lamen and Lemuel
"rebelled", did not want to leave their first land for the "promised land".
Lamen and Lemuel continually fought their father and brother Nephi,  they
eventually split up after arriving in the Americas and developed separate
cultures, structures, religions or what have you.  In the Book of Mormon
there is a running generalization of these two groups,  The Nephrites,
descendants of Nephi and followers of "Gods plan and will "and the
Laminites,
descendants of Lamen and Lemuel.  The Laminites are considered at least in
general terms, to be a more "wicked", non-believing group and were
constantly at war with the Nephrites.  However there is a period of time
when
the Nephrites became corrupt and the Lamenites in general returned to the
"truth" so it is a matter of belief  and following not so genetics or such.

So the "last battle" references the distruction of the "nephites" and the
last prophets
of the "true God"  The Laminites were victors and they are in fact the ones
that did continue on and were to meet the Europeans as they arrived here.
Ultimately, the American Indians and the native Americans del sur etc. have
been referenced as Laminites by many of our "modern prophets"  (Joseph
Smith,  Spencer Kimball etc.)  We in fact hold the Laminites in high regard
as descendants of Lehi etc.

There was a similar loss of the "Church of Christ" known as the Apostasy in
the land of the Jews.  Following the Crucifixion and the subsequent death
of the 12 Apostles,  the prophets ceased to exist in those lands.  The
people
tried to maintain the religion but it gradually degraded into various
interpretation of men and we have the many similar but differing Christian
religions.  We believe that God "restored" his full gospel to the earth
after this apostasy and Joseph Smith was the first Prophet of this
restoration.  Currently Gordon B. Hinkley serves as President and Prophet of
the Church.  Of course this is considered foolishness  at best by I suppose
most of the world.  I personally have a studied, prayed and come to my own
personal testimony that This is true.  It is a personal thing.  Others call
it decepton, stupidity or what they may, but I believe it to be true with
all my being and can not
deny it no matter how unscientific or whatever it may be.  :)



> > While serving my mission, it was commonly stated that Aymara is the
> closest
> > existing language to that which Lehi and Nephi spoke.
>
> I keep on thinking they should have talked Hebrew  :-)

right.....will find the book of mormon reference at the time Lehi and Lehi.
>
> Yes, it's a general view, although I think it could
> be applied to any of the native peoples. Never
> mind, I don't expect the Book of Mormon to be
> more specific (and I don't expect it to say
> "the aymaras...").
>

correct again,  I know of no SPECIFIC reference to the Aymaras but all is
believed to be true in our religion in general.  I will tell you that While
I was serving in Bolivia, there was a special conference held in the Coleseo
Cerrado in LaPaz where the Prophet Spencer Kimball came and meet with and
addressed the congregation.  Spencer Kimball is most know for his love and
complete regard of the Laminite peoples.  He was well into his 80's and a
bit of ill health.  He was advised to not make the trip to La Paz,
(altitude, too
hard physically etc.) by his personal physicians.  He would
have no part of it.  He was determined to come to Bolivia and meet the
Aymara
and Quechua.  The Coleseo was packed to overflow for the conference
sessions.  Spencer Kimball remained in the Coleseo to meet and shake hands
with any and every native that chose to do so following the formal meeting.
  It took a very long time and
was physically demanding on him, his physician having a fit all the while.
I was personally by Spencer Kimball's side the whole time and witnessed this
in person as mission photographer.  Spencer Kimball felt DRIVEN to meet the
aymara and quechua.  He oozed love and respect for them, I know he felt them
to be a special people with lineage tracing back to the ancient prophets.
However, beyond what I observed ,obviously can not comment or extrapolate
further as to specifics.  This man (prophet) had many duties and
responsibilities pulling at him but this was a huge priority for him and he
did in fact accomplish a great feat in doing it.


maybe this will help(further confuse?)

I am no scholar, nor can I speak as to many specifics as to the church but
do not mind the questions if you desire.


again thank you for the opportunity to serve.

don

p.s. please excuse my typos and misspellings.  Neither of those skills are
mine (obviously)  :-)