RV: [aymara] Prophetic Aymaras travel of Lehi to America and their language.

["I.E.S. Vistazul" <41700877@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>]

-----Mensaje original-----
De:	don asay [SMTP:donasay@hereigo.net]
Enviado el:	lunes 26 de febrero de 2001 3:50
Para:	aymaralist@aymara.org
Asunto:	Re: [aymara] Prophetic Aymaras   travel of Lehi to America and their language.


----- Original Message -----
From: "Alex Condori" <lista2@iname.com>
To: <aymaralist@aymara.org>
Sent: Sunday, February 25, 2001 2:22 PM
Subject: RE: [aymara] Prophetic Aymaras travel of Lehi to America and their
language.


> >However,  in my photo copy of my book Copacabana de los Incas
> >Plaza hermanos, Editores  Papeleria y Liberia . Calle, Ayacucho, 12 y 14
>
> >states " 1st. Las naciones y gentes sudamericnas, desciened de los Afros
> venidos antes de >Jesucristo nuestro Salvador, desde el Egipto, de
> heliopolis y de Ramses"\
>
> This was a widely spread opinion that
> couldn't be backed by a single evidence.
> The first Spanish priests comming to
> Peru in the 16th century, began to try
> to explain the origin of the native
> people they found. They tried to identify
> the biblical patriarchs we descent from.
> They also thought on migrations from
> the Old World, semitic peoples, etc.
> well, they imagined all that could be
> imagined. Your quotation above seems a
> product of that thinking.


So there is a long standing thought that the early europeans assigned their
religeous beliefs and tenants to the native Americans?  Kind of like hey
got to make it look good the King or Queen back at home kind of thing?
Seems quite plausible really  We from time to time I think try to assign our
ways on to others or rationalize things to fit so to speak.  OR could there
actually be some truth to this.  I guess that is really kind of the question
at hand there right?  Is there any actual factual evidence that can stand
review alone to prove or disprove these things that is irrefutable.  Is that
one of the things we are searching for?



>
> >2nd. En vida de los Aposloles de Christo de ha predicado su Santo
Evangelio
> en todos y en >cada uno de los pueblos de toda esta America;
>
> Well, during the Spanish Colonia, it was widely accepted
> that some of the apostles had preached in Perú.
> Take a look at "Tradiciones Peruanas" by Ricardo Palma,
> a genuine classic peruvian literature book (some
> traditions gathered by Palma do support this view).
> I think that Thomas was referred as one of these
> apostles.
>

So the traditon is that one(some) of the twelve of Christ were here on the
Americas teaching etc.?  The book of Mormon teaches that one of the first
things Christ did when he came to this land after the crucifixion was to
organize 12 apostles to carry on the teachings and structure after Christ
left.  Do you think that the traditions could have any merit, that maybe
the early colonizers not knowing how to deal with traditions of apostles
maybe assigned their "own" apostles i.e.: Thomas,to these traditions?  Or do
you feel maybe it is a total fabrication?  or?

We obviously like the apparant support that having 12 apostles here in
america gives to our side so to speak  the 6th article of faith of our
religion states;

6 We believe in the same organization that existed in the Primitive Church,
namely, apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, evangelists, and so forth.

so having apostles here is at least "convenient" and tidy.





> >3rd.  Han existido entre las Provincias alto-Peruanas, pueblos y ciudades
> con sus monumentos >clasicos, hasta el ano 666 en que tuvo lugar la
erupcion
> simultanea de varios volcanes, en >sete Nuevo-Mundo, causando grandes
> ruinas, como se ven desde el Brasil hasta el Canada e >Illinois;
>
> First notice!  :-)
>
tme too.


> >Book of Mormon page 1 chapter 1 of the first book of Nephi verse 2  "
Yea,
> I make a record in >the language of my father, which consists of the
> learning of the Jews and the language of the >Egyptians"
>
> >I have a recollection that either somewhere in the Book of Mormon or some
> other statement of >Joseph Smith possibly, there is a statement that the
> engravings on the plates are a "reformed >Egyptian"    I will see if I can
> find these references for you also...

Here it is!  I found it
(Mormon 9:32)

32 And now, behold, we have written this record according to our knowledge,
in the characters which are called among us the reformed Egyptian, being
handed down and altered by us, according to our manner of speech.
33 And if our plates had been sufficiently large we should have written in
Hebrew; but the Hebrew hath been altered by us also; and if we could have
written in Hebrew, behold, ye would have had no imperfection in our record.
34 But the Lord knoweth the things which we have written, and also that none
other people knoweth our language; and because that none other people
knoweth our language, therefore he hath prepared means for the
interpretation thereof.
35 And these things are written that we may rid our garments of the blood of
our brethren, who have dwindled in unbelief.
36 And behold, these things which we have desired concerning our brethren,
yea, even their restoration to the knowledge of Christ, are according to the
prayers of all the saints who have dwelt in the land.
37 And may the Lord Jesus Christ grant that their prayers may be answered
according to their faith; and may God the Father remember the covenant which
he hath made with the house of Israel; and may he bless them forever,
through faith on the name of Jesus Christ. Amen.
Ether

 a Second reference to the Egyptian language.

(Mosiah 1:4)

4 For it were not possible that our father, Lehi, could have remembered all
these things, to have taught them to his children, except it were for the
help of these plates; for he having been taught in the language of the
Egyptians therefore he could read these engravings, and teach them to his
children, that thereby they could teach them to their children, and so
fulfilling the commandments of God, even down to this present time.
5 I say unto you, my sons, were it not for these things, which have been
kept and preserved by the hand of God, that we might read and understand of
his mysteries, and have his commandments always before our eyes, that even
our fathers would have dwindled in unbelief, and we should have been like
unto our brethren, the Lamanites, who know nothing concerning these things,
or even do not believe them when they are taught them, because of the
traditions of their fathers, which are not correct.
6 O my sons, I would that ye should remember that these sayings are true,
and also that these records are true. And behold, also the plates of Nephi,
which contain the records and the sayings of our fathers from the time they
left Jerusalem until now, and they are true; and we can know of their surety
because we have them before our eyes.
7 And now, my sons, I would that ye should remember to search them
diligently, that ye may profit thereby; and I would that ye should keep the
commandments of God, that ye may prosper in the land according to the
promises which the Lord made unto our fathers.
8 And many more things did king Benjamin teach his sons, which are not
written in this book.
9 And it came to pass that after king Benjamin had made an end of teaching
his sons, that he waxed old, and he saw that he must very soon go the way of
all the earth; therefore, he thought it expedient that he should confer the
kingdom upon one of his sons.



it appers you have a copy of the book of Mormon.  you do seem quite
knowledgeable about this.   :-)

>
> It's my opinion but, if sons of Lemen (whose suppossed
> descent are we amerindians) spoke the same language
> than Nephri, that is "the language of the egiptians".
> Shouldn't we suppossed to speak some kind of
> egiptian-like language in the Americas, some kind
> of lexical basis in native languages, some kind of
> grammatical resemblance with egiptian in native languages?
>

True enough.  I did find the references I thought I remembered.  Mormon 9:32
talks of both the Egiptian and Hebrew they wrote was altered over time and
altered according to their speech to a point where no one else could
understand them.   That would explain why the language is not really
Egyptian like?  I honestly have no concept what Egyptian is like.  I am no
Scholar and can barely speak English on some days.  I assume from your
"tone",Egyptian has
no even vague resemblance toAymara or some other native American
language?  I am curious...

 If the language has changed that much then it throws out the theory of the
adamic language thing or possibly the perfect language theory, at least from
the historical point of view.  I suppose if Aymara is "perfect" in structure
or other form and is a useful term for translation engine purposes then the
historical changes really do not matter, just that it works.  on the other
hand critics could also  say the book of Mormon is a fallacy, a fictitious
or
literary work at best or a tool to deceive at worst and
Joseph smith put those passages in to cover his tracks so to speak just in
case no such physical evidence of such a language ever existed.


I freely acknowledge those possibilities, but also find it curious that the
Book of Mormon challenges one to take on one's own personal "peer review" of
it's contents and veracity.  It boldly goes where few works inviting all to
take on the challenge to prove for his or herself if it is true or fake.  It
fully exposes itself on it's own merits and makes no excuses in attempt to
justify.  It is true or it is FALSE, nothing in between


(Moroni. 10:3)

3 Behold, I would exhort you that when ye shall read these things, if it be
wisdom in God that ye should read them, that ye would remember how merciful
the Lord hath been unto the children of men, from the creation of Adam even
down until the time that ye shall receive these things, and ponder it in
your hearts.
4 And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would
ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not
true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having
faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of
the Holy Ghost.
5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things.
6 And whatsoever thing is good is just and true; wherefore, nothing that is
good denieth the Christ, but acknowledged that he is.
7 And ye may know that he is, by the power of the Holy Ghost; wherefore I
would exhort you that ye deny not the power of God; for he worketh by power,
according to the faith of the children of men, the same today and tomorrow,
and forever.
8 And again, I exhort you, my brethren, that ye deny not the gifts of God,
for they are many; and they come from the same God. And there are different
ways that these gifts are administered; but it is the same God who worketh
all in all; and they are given by the manifestations of the Spirit of God
unto men, to profit them.
9 For behold, to one is given by the Spirit of God, that he may teach the
word of wisdom;


As a missionary I personally told people to not trust me, I am human,
capable of lying, misinterpreting etc.  Take the challenge and find out
about it in a very personal way we asked  those interested in listening and
discussing. We are unique in that we as a religion ask people to search it
out in their souls and find a kind of personal revelation.   The Book of
Mormon is significant as a stand alone work of Scripture, as a second
witness to Christ and his universal love and redemption al all peoples of
the world and ...  If the Book of Mormonism indeed true then Joseph Smith
must be a prophet of these times and This church and teaching is true also.
can't have one without the other and we invite anyone to find out which side
they believe personally.

you may also find Ether chapter 13 interesting.  Ether a Jeridite prophet
( left the tower of Babel)  foresaw the coming of Christ to Jerusalem and
even Lehi and his family coming to the Americas and the establishment of "a
new Jerusalem.

Mosiah 1: 3- is another reference to Lehi and the Brass plates he preserved
and the Egyptian language

3 And he also taught them concerning the records which were engraven on the
plates of brass, saying: My sons, I would that ye should remember that were
it not for these plates, which contain these records and these commandments,
we must have suffered in ignorance, even at this present time, not knowing
the mysteries of God.
4 For it were not possible that our father, Lehi, could have remembered all
these things, to have taught them to his children, except it were for the
help of these plates; for he having been taught in the language of the
Egyptians therefore he could read these engravings, and teach them to his
children, that thereby they could teach them to their children, and so
fulfilling the commandments of God, even down to this present time.
5 I say unto you, my sons, were it not for these things, which have been
kept and preserved by the hand of God, that we might read and understand of
his mysteries, and have his commandments always before our eyes, that even
our fathers would have dwindled in unbelief, and we should have been like
unto our brethren, the Lamanites, who know nothing concerning these things,
or even do not believe them when they are taught them, because of the
traditions of their fathers, which are not correct.
6 O my sons, I would that ye should remember that these sayings are true,
and also that these records are true. And behold, also the plates of Nephi,
which contain the records and the sayings of our fathers from the time they
left Jerusalem until now, and they are true; and we can know of their surety
because we have them before our eyes.
7 And now, my sons, I would that ye should remember to search them
diligently, that ye may profit thereby; and I would that ye should keep the
commandments of God, that ye may prosper in the land according to the
promises which the Lord made unto our fathers.


I do hope you do not mind my ramblings.  It is interesting to me.  I feel I
am not going to be of any real help to any of you on this list however in
pursuing your interests or translation tools  I can only speak from
personal experience and faith based belief, not exactly the kind of stuff
science is founded in.....

thank you all for indulging me these last few days  Let me know if this gets
to be a bore!

sincerely

don